Real names have been substituted in this conversation to remove public information. There were 5 main participants, all abbreviated NAF1, NAF2, NAF3 and NAF4. "NAF" stands for "New Age Fluffy" or "New Age Fairy", but as its all relative and experience everything differently you can make up your own words for it.
Alex Cameron
12:29pm Jan 16th
Morning chaps - i've been researching mysticism and spiritualism this morning because as you know, i'm a great fan. You're all subscribers to these beliefs, so i wanted to start a conversation about it to make sure i have all the facts. It's been very difficult to find a definition but through about 20 or so mainstream sites i've been able to cobble together a compact list.
I'd like to ask you questions about these beliefs and see how much i've left out. I'm not looking for an argument, just to listen and confirm what these beliefs are and what they are based on. Stella and i have kicked things off, but the more the merrier. I need a generalised definition for the group and types of people who subscribe rather than personal combinations.
So here we go - would you say this list is accurate?
Teleology
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* Belief in synchronicity. A belief that coincidences have a spiritual meaning, and contain spiritual lessons to teach those that are open to them.
* Everything is universally connected through God, participating in the same energy
* There is a cosmic goal and a belief that all entities are (willingly or unwillingly) cooperating towards this goalSpiritual versus scientific knowledge
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* Intuition is a more appropriate guide than rationalism, scientific skepticism or the scientific method
* Spiritual beings (e.g. angels, ascended masters, elementals, ghosts, and/or space aliens) exist and will guide us, if we open ourselves to their guidance.
* There exists a common core within all religions which renders dogma and religious identity irrelevant. Rejection of tradition and dogma.
* Feminine forms of spirituality, including feminine images of the divine, such as the female Aeon Sophia in Gnosticism and Dana in Wicca, are deprecated by patriarchal religions.
* An appeal to the language of nature and mathematics, as evidenced by numerology, Kabbala, Sacred Geometry and gnosticism to discern the nature of God.
* Ancient civilizations such as Atlantis existed and left behind relics and monuments such as the Great Pyramid and Stonehenge, whose true nature has not been discovered by mainstream historians.
* Certain geographic locations emanate psychic energy, and such places were considered sacred in religions throughout the world.
* Western science neglects parapsychology, meditation, and holistic health to its detriment.
* Science and spirituality are ultimately harmonious. New discoveries in science, e.g. evolution and quantum mechanics, when rightly understood, point to spiritual principles.Human potential
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* The human mind has much greater potential than that ascribed to it, and is capable of overriding physical reality;the ultimate level of human potential has only been realised by a few spiritual masters
* Humans have a responsibility to take part in positive creative activity and to work to heal ourselves, each other and the planet
* Meditation, yoga, t'ai chi ch'üan, Qi Gong, reiki, and other Eastern practices can assist in realizing one’s potential
* Humans have potential healing powers (such as therapeutic touch) which can be developed to heal others through touch or at a distance
* Relativist approach to truth - one truth but many pathsMiscellaneous
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* Consciousness persists after death as life in different forms; the afterlife exists for further learning through reincarnation and/or near-death experiences.
* Rocks and crystals have psychic energies that can aid meditation and healing.
* Dreams and psychic experiences are spiritually meaningful.
* Fairies live in nature or gardens, are generally described as human in appearance and having magical powers. Some New Age Wiccans use fairy magic for inspiration and healing.
NAF2
12:47pm Jan 16th
don't forget the trolls and pixies!
hehehe - and thus it continues....
paganism overstates feminine 'God' power just as Christianity overstates masculine 'Dog' power...
Generate
Organise
Destroy
will puke up some more crap for you later - have a lovely mass debate folks...
NAF3
1:05pm Jan 16th
The Chaos Theory is worth looking in to
Alex Cameron
1:15pm Jan 16th
Cool - thanks. What i'm ultimately looking for is a statement of beliefs, rather than opinions so no need to do any explaining. "New Age" is a very broad term that encompasses a lot of things (energy, spirits, power, forces etc). That list needs to be as definitive as it can get whilst remaining general, so if i've missed anything or it's glaringly wrong, do point it out.
One rule though - answers need to be specific, to the point, free of abstract jargon/spiel and no more than 2 sentences.
Some questions that i sent over to NAF1 earlier from this email:
explain to me exactly what the source of these mystical "abilties", "powers", "insights" and "tools" are.
They are the GOD lying within each and every one of us. And since we are a complete individual wanting to experince the earthly plane as that uniqueness we forget we have these tools.
What is their mechanism?
To find our own personal truth
How can they or their effect be observed?
Quantum Physics
Why is science irrelevant,
It's not it just tries to produce a result that cannot be attainable in the third dimension in which we exist most of the time. Dream state being another and meditation being the best place to access our own divine nature, the goodness within us. Drugs, alcohol, sex and other profoundly earth shattering experiences distracty us form this, not the "esoterical" tools you condemn. It's much more subtle than that!
and reality subjective?
Yes reality is completely subjective until you subscribe to anothers mass belief system that fits your own
How does astrology
It's the law of physics and the pull on your being that states your destiny, which you chooe before incarnating!
dowsing
again the laws of physics combined with intuition to find ones alchemy, noramlly ised for finding the basics in life liike water and the sex of a child.
and tarot work?
There are 44 laws of the universe: I can name but only a few, like gratitude, forgiveness, love, empathy,k compassion, evil, hatred...etc.. the tarot simply mirrors what one feels!
What are spirits?
Others that have passed over from this lifetime who have much to tell us. I personally don't communicate through shamanic ritual, but they are there, so I'm told if i want to know more. I personally rely on God to do that!
Spirits are ones that have come before and know more about the physical life process than we do. When we are born, we lose that memory and we have to learn our lessons aagin, time after time until we get it right. reincarnation!
If you would care to study quantum physics you would see that every energetic output is now measurable! Astonding but true. So if you observe something with a belief, it will appear that way top you in your reality! Call it schizophrenic if you like, but the planet is a very sick place! It;s about transcending reality anf that takes enormous courage!
Also....
Chaos theory - i have 4 books on the subject and have studied it since i was at college. Which parts of it, specifically?
NAF3
1:20pm Jan 16th
Why specify?
K
1:31pm Jan 16th
am undecided personally which side of the fence i sit on if at all. Rather than jump on a religious bandwagon i think i will take my time and see what i believe in my heart rather than something that has to be explained. Your each fighting for you religion. If u truly believe it, then it doesn't need to be explained.
plus baby - this isn't an argument about whose religion is right, i just would like these beliefs listed out to see if i have them correct. There is no need to justify, but a basis for it is important.
NAF3
1:54pm Jan 16th
Why specify? Because I believe you translate the Chaos Theory to your own life in your own personal way.
NAF3
2:39pm Jan 16th
And I don't think everything in life needs an explanation
NAF2
4:00pm Jan 16th
Trying to turn new agist philosophy and old paganistic thought (most of which if you recall zeitgeist xtianity ripped off anyhoo) is a complete waste of time.
It's the broadest school of religious thought out there. To codify it into one set of beliefs makes an unfair strawman for others to attack.
This debate is far too wide and incorrectly framed and will result in a clusterfuck of crap,
Furthermore, instead of having this closed little facebook gangbang, why not take it over to textualecstasy forums - where it will add interest, content and spark wider debate?
NAF1
4:13pm Jan 16th
Good idea NAF2, also perhaps set up a group Alex and get all and sundry to add in their own collective truths/views/beliefs. You could start by putting a topic out there on my "Truth, like it is", group. All new-agers on there (god I hate that term, the stuff I do is ancient, nothing new about it!) It's too broad and i'm already exhausted trying to answer some of your questions. It's taken me 38 years to fine tune these beliefs and personal experiences and I think when I write it all down it will be, in fact, my memoirs!
x
I particularly like this scientific explanation. It just goes to show that everyone's truth is in fact different, if only by a millisecond! Enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wteiuxyqtoM&mode=related&search=
Alex Cameron
4:34pm Jan 16th
Chaos theory is traditional science, and *not* translated personally (you can't translate gravity personally either), so i can't include that as a belief. The other issue is that mysticism indicates order (energy systems etc), whereas chaos is about the opposite: disorder. Which one is it? If "don't know" is the answer, that's totally cool.
You need to specify for the same reason that you'd ask a GP to tell you the exact issue if he/she was reading you blood test results that indicated there was a problem. Imagine if they replied with "why specify? I think you interpret blood test results in your own way".
And no, we are definitely *not* going to be treating this a broad school of thought, as it's not. What is needed here are specific general principles that make up the "new age" belief system. It is accountable as all other systems are, and it's not wide (that is diversion and evasion). New age beliefs are underpinned by central concepts - energy, spirit, force etc - and that is what we're looking at here. What are the common and core ideas?
Here's the template for the question i am asking, and no more.
What do you believe, and why?
e.g. "I believe that London buses are painted red, as that is published local government policy and every bus i have seen in London is red."
You don't need to add anything else or justify it. Just to state your beliefs and what they are based on.
NAF3
4:41pm Jan 16th
I don't believe in a god or a set of rules with which we are supposed to live our lives. I do believe that there is a higher purpose and that we don't just live and die and that's it. I am still developing many of my own theories about life right now.
I've had many people ask me about the Chaos Theory and asked me to pinpoint what parts appeal. I like the concept of your actions impacting you tweaking the reactions. I know that's a strange way of describing it but that's my take. Everything has a take.
I don't believe in Christianity and as Ghandi described the western civilisation as 'a wonderful idea', I believe religion is a good idea but ruined in practice.
NAF1
4:57pm Jan 16th
It's too personal and I'm a little gun shy after yesterdays blog mate! ;) I'll work with you on a few things, but some of my answers are going to seem completely and utterly ridiculous to others who haven't shared my life experience!
Alex Cameron
6:02pm Jan 16th
NAF3 - that's great. Could you (briefly and concisely) elaborate on what this higher purpose is? Also i have to admit i have no idea what this means: "the concept of your actions impacting you tweaking the reactions".
NAF1 - no need to divulge personal experiences or intimate details, just the discovery/understanding about life/the universe etc it has led to, i.e. what you believe as a result.
Cheers guys - will start a thread on NAF2's site later.
NAF1
9:57pm Jan 16th
OK, here's the gospel according to NAF1, for NAF1. I must begin with I don't believe this stuff or even "know" this stuff because I've read it somewhere, it's completely personal to me and my life experience. Please bear that in mind when reading, ridiculing, as you will and having empathy, I hope, with my journey called life, so far. :) If you rip this apart, you rip my life apart, so be gentle with your views, differences and tread lightly with your contradictions. This is my "God" experience on a sample of one.
Alex I have to divulge personal experiences to make this real for everyone. A lot of my beliefs are really knowings. If I truly know something that I cannot explain physically or back it up with any evidence I just know it and it's real for me. And I don't mean magical thinking, fallacy or fantasy, it just is. That's why this exercise is very, very difficult to articulate well or back up. Sod it, i've gone intimate with all of this! And I'm wiki'ing like never before!
1.God - who is He/She/It, what is He/She/It like and how do we communicate with him/her/it?
God is energy, it's asexual but can at times be interpreted as male or female, (Yin/yang) it is everything we experience, cannot be created or destroyed and moves into, through and out of form in all dimensions. The way i communicate with that energy is prayer and meditation. Prayer is asking the questions, asking for guidance and meditating is listening for the answer. All done with the highest integrity and for the highest good or divine order/God's will.
2. What is "personal truth"? Is truth an absolute or is it relative?
Personal truth for me, is the truth that resonates with a feeling of any kind. It's relative. It also is confirmed by life experiences, but not necessarily in the 3rd dimension. I can have these personal truths show up when I meditate, sleep, dream, or have an idea. (I believe another form of god coming through me is when I have ideas or when i am creating, such as writing music, I'm merely a channel for this energy) If you like my human being is a divining rod for the divine.God energy. Imagination is another form of god/energy. Imagination should not be "make-believe", it's "create-believe". I try to stay open to it daily and let it flow through me.
3."a result that cannot be attainable in the third dimension" - what on earth does this mean, and what are the other "dimensions"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory#Description_of_the_duality
All I can say is that the third dimension is not the only one in which we exist. When I meditate I go to sub dimensions, not very nice places to visit, but sometimes necessary (also known as the Lower astral planes, lot's of dead and stuck energy down there, maybe my version of hell) I have read in numerous books about dimensions such as christ consciousness the 5th dimension. A further dimension of Melchizedek at the 6th and 7th, 8th and 9th as sound, light, energy, mass consciousness. I have been to most of these as well in a meditative state and have had a very brief visit to the Akashic Records (collective consciousness)
feynman.physics.lsa.umich.edu/.../ 1984%20-%20The%20Eleven%20Dimensions%20of%20Reality.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melchizedek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Antonov_(scientist)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records
4. What is "one's alchemy"?
In Buddhist tradition all of life is suffering and our mission is to transcend that suffering. My own personal "alchemy" is transmuting negative energy into positive energy, like turning base metal into gold, only of the soul. Taking really indulgent, easy, stuck energy like hate, jealousy, anger, rage and turning it into the higher refined energies such as love, joy, elation, ecstasy and most importantly, forgiveness. The alchemy of God resides for me in total forgiveness. It's about being the bigger person.
5. How does the tarot mirror what you feel? What is the process behind it?
It's a guide, like the bible is, just another form of energy communicating spirit and an intuitive one at that. It allows you to ask questions and then interpret your own "god" message within it. If it's negative, that';s your interpretation, if it's positive, again totally relative to the observer.
6. Why shamanism?
It's an ancient practise for accessing the other dimensions of consciousness known as the lower, middle and upper worlds. i personally do not communicate with other spirits once in practise, but I do get guidance from my inner self, another form of God to me. It manifests as a white wolf and gives me imagery and symbols and sometimes objects in medtitation for me to know my inner being and receive metaphorical guidance for me to interpret from that. It's basically a lovely safe way for me to access my sub-conscious mind, consciously! Sometimes others in my group interpret what the message or learning could be. I have witnessed a broken tibia being put back into place and healed and the patient walking within an hour without a cast. I've had various minor illnesses leave my body completely after healing with a shaman in Latin America. I've seen a cancerous tumour being removed by hands with no surgery from a womans breast. It's real to me.
7. Faith healing, reiki, energy work, light work, pyschic surgery.
I've studied and read about energy work for 25 years. I've worked with Reiki masters and have become one myself over time. I've seen it all and this you have to see to believe. It started when I was 8 and i witnessed my mother healing a blind person. She conducted several healings in my presence, so it's real for me, her and the people she worked with. Therefore I'm open to it, it's in my reality radar: Actually it's real for all of us, we just didn't ever get the education for developing it. But we all have that "god"/ "christ" power within us. When you leave your comfort zone, you find this energy. In my experience.
http://www.whatthebleep.com/herald3/quandries.shtml
8. New-Age, Mind, body, spirit, Jung, Freud.
For me this is what I call "quadrinity" Like the holy trinity but there is a forth component. The mind is split in two the emotional child and the intellect, so we have our duality of perception:
a) Spiritual self, God consciousness, the good stuff for us. The higher being in all of us. Unlimited human potential, limited by our imaginations... Limited by the flow of God we let in.
b) Intellect, ego, protection, sometimes the bad stuff like pride, indulgent stuff to make us look good.. etc.. Sometimes what serves to protect just keeps us stupid. I gave my intellect a long sabbatical and I created everything I desired during that time. And still do, my intellect is my biggest shadow and saboteur. Alex i know will hate this part! Hurrah! x
c)Emotions, the God energy trying to tell us something in good and bad feelings. When we are happy we are in line with our divine purpose, when we are sad, it's an indication we are out of line with what we want or are wanting to create.
d) The poor old vehicle that carries our infinite spirit through the journey called life on earth! Bless it... I love my wrinkles because i've earned them! :)
Ok I'm waiting for the men in white coats! :) neah nar, neah nar.... If the buggers arrive.... "NO LIKE IT!"
some parting notes and personal wisdom from others.
http://www.monday9am.tv/photos/monday9am_film_stars/lynnefranks1.html
http://www.monday9am.tv/photos/monday9am_film_stars/heatherbradley.html
http://www.monday9am.tv/photos/monday9am_film_stars/fredalanwolf.html
http://www.monday9am.tv/photos/monday9am_film_stars/timfreke.html
If you No Like It, Sod IT! This is me....all are welcome x
NAF2
10:28pm Jan 16th
I nearly cried
"troyed and moves into, through and out of form in all dimensions. The way i communicate with that energy is prayer and meditation. Prayer is asking the questions, asking for guidance and meditating is listening for the answer. All done with the highest integrity and for the highest good or divine order/God's will."
nailed. Well fuckin done NAF1 !
Alex Cameron
12:43am Jan 17th
Thanks for taking the time to write all that.
Will have a look over this properly in the morning, but i think the most startling thing is the celebration of something actually being remotely defined. After a brief skim i still don't see the necessary clarity.Not sure why it is so exhausting just to simply relate your beliefs, but hey.
Yet my simple question has yet to have an answer - is what i listed at the beginning an accurate statement of New Age beliefs, and if so, what is the basis for those in the list (minus the verbosity). There's no need to help me try and relate via comparison with Christian beliefs.
p.s. NAF2 - "pseudo-proselytizing rants"? There's no preaching in providing precise and speciific empirical reasoning and evidence about why and how something is clearly counterfeit, and its perfectly reasonable to be angry about how seriously quackery is taken.
Am off to ask the fairies in the garden for healing!
NAF2
5:22am Jan 17th
I haven't seen any "precise and specific" reasoning of anykind, to prove counterfeitness of otherwise. I see a lot of assholes, and opinions, long may it continue...
If you want to round up very disperate "New Age" and Pagan beliefs like some cowboy and then attack them beneath a cloak of supposed convenience, then fine - but it is intellectually dishonest and ...
"Chaos theory is traditional science, and *not* translated personally (you can't translate gravity personally either), so i can't include that as a belief."
Telling peopple what you can and cannot accept as a belief? Not proselytizing? mmm''kay. The ridicule of this "quakery" is offensively provocative and patronising and not the mark of a genuine attempt to understand because as said three times now, to investgate "Neu Age" or "Paganism" is as meaningless as to examine "christianity" or "Deism" in the round. Shallow...
The terms of reference of this supposed debate seem to be exceedingly shady, and unfairly set if you 'forbid' reference to Christianity or comparison to it. Especially seeing as which belief system spawned which.
Don't behead those fairies Dude - you're sounding like a Muslim! For all your slurs against the mental health of people interested in New Age philosophy or Ancient Paganistic theology, it's revealing which belief structure is responsible for the more deaths, intolerence and suffering this millenia past.
Some Pagans might believe in fairies, but they don't believe in a God that condemns us for eternity based on eating shellfish, and puts dinosaurs in the ground to 'test our faith'. They also got more regard for the sanctity of life then Catholic and Protestant Dogma will ever santimoniously lay claim to.
and now for a musical interlude...
I believe the children are our future...
Give them knives and let them stab away...
ahem - "Paganism (from Latin paganus, meaning "country dweller, rustic") is a term which, from a Western perspective, has come to connote a broad set of spiritual or cultic practices or beliefs of any folk religion, and of historical and contemporary polytheistic religions in particular."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism
Quote of the day: "we are definitely *not* going to be treating this a broad school of thought, as it's not. What is needed here are SPECIFIC GENERAL principles that make up the "new age" belief system. It is accountable as all other systems are"
NAF2
- you can't kid a kidder!
NAF2
5:44am Jan 17th
oh and for those who can't be bothered to read Wikipedia link above
or any other Wikipedia link for that matter
"Characteristic of pagan traditions is the absence of proselytism and the presence of a living mythology which explains religious practice."
Oooo err misses!
NAF2
6:14am Jan 17th
Probably woefully off topic and certainly not addressed to Dear Alex in particular:
I'm a Stoic Discordian Mahayan Buddhist Born Again Christian Jew Bag whom Practices Islamic Tithing and generally believes in Shariah economics. And angels - something good in everyone I see...
I have a dream. No more following, no more fighting, no more hatred. Our beliefs are simply ideas we take too seriously, and being scientifically rational about it, they are 99% guarunteed to be incorrect.
It's time to grow up. Take your 'honour' killings, your clinic bombing 'right to life', your continual submittal to Ba'al Money and fuck off.
Beliefs make hypocrits of us all. We need ideas and faith: not one ubiquitous belief system.
and that's why Al Quaeda, and the British Government alike, are cunts. Trying to make the world into a silent, meek, monothought clique.
and for all the death and pain and hopelessness around, we are going to inherit the Earth, theres evil and virtue in all religions, but in loving kindness the balance will be raised and light will repeal darkness.
and I think that's something, we can all agree on, we make our Gods almost as much as they made us. Life is worship. Not Sunday mornings. Love it, or go back to the drawing board, it's that simple. Good Luck, namaste and Blessings to all... one love, peace love unity and respect and hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari ram hari krisha hari raaaaam.
NAF3
8:51am Jan 17th
I don't know what the higher purpose is, hence my statement about still figuring things out! Currently I just go on feelings. I'm working on my concepts.
NAF1
9:24am Jan 17th
-Hi NAF3, it is a complicated one for sure and acknowleding your feelings is a great way to start.
What I've come to realise through various religious and metapysical studies is that we write our higher purpose. The way I have come to know it is that until we realise we write our own script we are just cruising through life on auto-pilot. We are not deliberatly creating our life we are reacting to people, place and things within it. This reactionary stance is what most people of past generations have done and it's a bit like living in the dark, just moving from one reaction to another. What I do now, with the help of accessing my sub-conscious mind is I go into that and see what God or creative energy wants for me. I then use that guidance to move forward with my life. It's a bit of a paradigm shift in ones consciousness, but it's a much better way to live to ones full potential.
-NAF2, I'm loving your views. Keep 'em coming. New-age principles are written by the individual. It is too broad to cover. It's not like the simplistic form of christianity where there is one god and you must behave a certain way and have certain principles etc. New-Age philosophy is much broader and allows the individual the scope to believe what they want to.
-Alex, if fairies work for you mate, no one in this group is going to knock it. Said obviously with tongue in cheek as i know you were being facetious.
Alex Cameron
10:10am Jan 17th
ok let's make this simple to understand so we can be clear. It is proving harder and harder to get a straight answer, which is extremely worrying. Let's re-clarify, once again.
a) precise and specific = here is a scientific reason explaining your superstition and how it works (e.g. ideometer effect on my blog etc). It is not spiritual, or mysterious, is perfectly explainable. That's not preaching.
b) Nothing intellectually dishonest about summarising the underlying concepts of new age belief - dishonesty is being evasive (even unintentionally) that they cannot be grouped, when they can.
c) beliefs are definable and literal, hence why you cannot accept things like gravity...
d) I never "forbid" anyone to say/do anything, but as the conversation is not meant to be a comparison between religions. Doing that is again evasion.
"Specific and general" as in the list i put in there at the beginning - replace "general" with "broad". Literal issue. I was tired when i wrote it.
I've asked for a statement of belief for accuracy only and to listen, not ridicule. I will of course respond afterwards, but not here.
Why is it *so* hard to explain these beliefs in simple english without long diatribes of waffle and defensiveness?
NAF3
10:18am Jan 17th
Ok I'll make this simple - it's a little difficult for me to describe how I feel exactly so I won't.
NAF2
10:21am Jan 17th
NAF1 - thanks . views towards higher purpose are very much what I wish I could have put across half as eloquently as you just did.
God is the fufillment of all needs, to manifest desire towards anything but the purpose of God obviously brings suffering. This is alchymikal truth - to become gold, Go(love)d.
By money or the pursuit of power instead of the Good of service to others ... truly all great religious leaders, have loved all gods, for all is in the all in the unity of this universe and beyond. People are Gods, and I believe in all Seven or so billion of the bastards!
God takes no prisioners and burns no souls. Freedom is given and service is expected. you reap the rewards and failures sure, but it never ends until you are one again in the magus mundae of this world back as a part of God from whence you came, this is hell - separation from God. But Dammit I'm in love with this Planet and I'm glad to be reasonably free and able to try in my lameass way some help to others. This level of happiness is possible for everyone - and would be more prevalent . Hell might be other people, but reflecting back is the fact we all are hell and we're in it together. So we might as well have a drink and a smoke and fucking enjoy it.
Just cause my God has no name, doesn't mean, he doesn't offer fantastic luminescence in my life.
I'm quite open religiously, but I do dislike the hangover of cromwellian calvinist thinking stinking up public law and government for everyone. This aborted fetus of Christianity's true message ridicules any intellect. Pseudo or otherwise. I'm talking temperence movements, Fred Phelps et al.
NAF2
-you can be polytheistic and deist/monotheistic at the same time. It pisses people off. Poetry.
Alex Cameron
10:23am Jan 17th
OK going to start a thread on textual esctasy for this as i've been talking with other people too - 18 in total now. Will post the link in a bit once its up.
NAF2
10:25am Jan 17th
Might as well do a copypasta... nice one Alex
"Why is it *so* hard to explain these beliefs in simple english without long diatribes of waffle and defensiveness?"
Ever read the Bible?
NAF1
10:52am Jan 17th
hehe x
NAF1
10:55am Jan 17th
Alex it's hard because it's deeply personal and self evolved. Rather than being taught what to believe, we've found out for ourselves what are own personal truths are. You can't really be concise about it in my view.
NAF4
11:23am Jan 17th
I tried to stay out of this because this discussion appears futile to me, it's like trying to "convert" a Muslim to Judism. However, no one is trying to convert anyone here, but the ones who accept new age/ paganism/ mysticism are trying to explain, which is just as hard, as explaining Christianity, i.e. the mother (or father) of Protestant church (that includes English church) is Catholicism, as it is due mostly to Henry the 8ths inability to have a sons and being a right twat and Martin Luther (being one of those that came up with the Protestant idea, Lutheron church) being disappointed with Catholicism. The mother (or father) of Catholic church is Judism, as Jesus was Jewish and the old Testament is used by Jews and Christians alike.
As to your trolling post, my IQ is 145 (taken in English and not my mother tongue language Lithuanian).
Now here are my answers to your questions.
Teleology - disagree - whether coincidences have a spiritual meaning is for individuals to decide, it's superstition that is used in every religion (Christianity included).
Spiritual versus scientific knowledge - disagree -most witches (these are the only people I can talk about being a witch myself, I know nothing about new age stuff) are very well educated in science and study chemistry, physics and other sciences at their spare time. Also here I have to point out that more Christians are against new findings of scientists about evolution than there are pagans. Religion was just a part of evolution, human beings asking where they came from etc. The man created a god by it's own image and not the other way round, as human mind is too basic and simple to simply accept something they don't really know or understand, not knowing something usually causes fear and that is what humans have been avoiding for century by creating God.
The divine feminine was imported into Christianity through back door with Mary - the mother of God, however even though she's a divine mother she is a very small figure in the whole the father the son and the holly ghost business, and almost non-existant in Protestant church.
Christians - believe in Angels, and many pagans believe in personal guides I believe in my totem animal, because I met it.
Physics - the explanation of energy explains a lot, you don't need yo interpret anything at all :
Energy is converted from one form to another, but it is never created or destroyed. Human being is a form of energy too.
Human potential - agree but not in every sense of the word, any practise can help human achieve it's potential as much as prayer, all one needs is focus and direction, and whatever helps is good. It is simply connection to super-conscious.
Everyone has potential in any field.
Reincarnation - I was a great disbeliever until i experienced something I can not explain, i.e. understanding Portuguese and having memories that are not mine, at the time I did not speak or understand Spanish (that would make understanding Portuguese easier), and even though I speak a few languages it doesn't mean I'm a genius and can understand foreign language without learning it. That turned me into a believer and not the other way round.
Fairies - there is a religion called faery or fairy wicca they believe in fairies, there are many branches of wicca that believe in completely different things, it all depends on the path they follow.
Any tool that helps meditation should be used whether it's a broom, a sock or a crystal, it's just what is in person's mind.
And my personal belief system is:
I believe in polarity, as positive and negative exists everywhere in science, therefor I believe it. I also believe that positive and negative forces (not in the sense of good and bad, but rather a pure + and - ) are the creative forces. I believe that we all create our own god how we want to see it, because our little minds are too narrow just to accept that we don't understand.
I believe in wiccan rede:
An' it harm none, do what thou wilt.
But I dislike anything related to A. Crowley.
I do not worship anything, be it a God or Goddess, a celebrity or one of natural forces. I respect every living being and every natural force.
I believe that science will be able to explain more in the future.
As for future telling, when the Bible tells that there will be an end of the world and everyone will die and go to either heaven or hell, people believe it, yet when someone tells you that you are going to end up living in Spain even you intend to live in France it's fraud. Work it out.
People don't need rules, we need freedom, most of the religions plant fear into people, and promise them heaven if they are good worshippers.
Witchcraft does not promise heaven or hell because we don't know if there is such thing.
Paganism is the oldest religion in the world, before we were Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians and so on, we were pagans one way or the other and most of the pagans were converted by force. Lithuania being the last country in Europe to be converted to Christianity, had a lot of pagan traditions converted to Christian traditions. Therefor, Christianity simply renamed things to keep it simple... There are many examples that I can list if you require. And don't get me started about Lithuanian conversion to Christianity as I will write whole bloody book. So here it is plain and simple without avoiding anything. I don't really care what you think, because it's you and not me Alex. My husband has seen a real gangrene (as declared by doctors) healed, I have seen my husbands father who has been dead for almost 40 years and who's picture I never saw, I have seen my husbands mother who's picture I never saw either. I believe what I see, I did not create it with my mind, because I don't need dead people in my life, I have plenty to deal with in the alive ones.
P.S. Even many witches/pagans/new agers will disagree with what I said but this is how I see it plain and simple and please forgive me if I made any mistakes explaining myself, my English is good, but most of the stuff I learned about religion was in Lithuanian therefor wording may not be perfect.
Alex Cameron
1:18pm Jan 17th
NAF2 - can't get onto your site as its being too slow? Am in an Internet cafe in Canterbury with Kel, bizarrely opposite a wicca cafe. I think thr fairies are conspiring to stop me.
NAF1
1:20pm Jan 17th
hahahahaha! You know you are going to be hunted down by the "wee folk" now until the end of your days!
Alex Cameron
1:30pm Jan 17th
Ok will copy this to TE when i can get it to respond. Here's my thoughts on reading this stuff that's coming through.
-----------------------
The issue with relativism is that it is an endless loop. It is everything, and is nothing, as Orwellian-speak is. If you said to a mystic that "everything and nothing" is utterly meaningless, the would be "it depends on what you mean by 'meaning', as everyone experiences it differently". So it sidesteps the point very elegantly and avoids the direct question. Trying to get anything defined is virtually impossible but nothing has a concrete definition - John is making his point by being literal, yet the nature of the belief that everything is relative means that being literal is futile. Which one is it?
1. God is energy, of which the properties of are described as the energy in physics. So you pray to energy? How do you address energy in a prayer? is God an entity or is it "god-energy"? It would be helpful if you could describe your scientific understanding of "energy" in physics (briefly - it can be done in 5 lines).If God is energy and a spiritual force manifesting in physical form, why can it not be measured, observed or validated by scientists? Is God in the metal that makes up the parts of a gun or a bullet that kills someone in a war, or in a napalm explosion? If God is in everything, is he/she/it in evil too?
2. So truth is relative, but to recognise it, it must resonate with a feeling (no idea what this means)? Is this what we would typically call a "moment of revelation"? If i say "it is currently daytime in the GMT timezone, and when the sun goes down it will be night" - is that truth absolute, or is it relative and different for everyone in the GMT timezone? I am currently typing - is this truth, or is it relative? If so, how relative? Would someone else interpret my typing and posture as a higher ape?
3. Which part of string theory are you referring to, as this principle has been discarded by the scientific community? What are these dimensions/astral planes and can they only be accessed via a particular mental state?
4. So "alchemy" not in terms of its literal medieval meaning, but conceptual to describe the process of manipulating "energy" (i.e. God)? God has alchemy too?
5. How does tarot work - where does the energy start, flow and end, and how do the cards appear in the order they do, and how are they chosen?
6.what are these lower, middle and upper worlds? In this process of creating images in your mind, has there been any ingesting of hallucenogens? (serious question as shamanism has been documented to involve the use of DMT)
7. How does this healing work? What is the source of this healing energy (God-energy?), and what happens inside the body during this healing and divination? Have any of these healings (generally speaking, not your personal experiences) been witnessed and recorded by professional medical/scientific personnel? How was the illness diagnosed in the first place? Does homeopathy work?
8. What is the basis of the splitting of the mind into 2 components - is this a psychological or spiritual view, and what is the basis? What about the evolutionary process of emotion and how is serves animals? How do we "write our higher purpose" (this doesn't appear to have any apparent meaning)?
and a bonus:
How much of New Age belief systems are a reaction/rebellion to organised religion, institutions and the establishment, as clearly witnessed in this thread?
If everything is relative in New age belief, is there such a thing as "false", "wrong", "erroneous" or "final"?
TEST 1
If i put 100 mediums/psychics together in a line and challenged them to divine/dowse the location of Madeleine McCann, surely more than 60% would come up with the same answer that would be correct? If not, why not?
TEST 2
"if fairies work for you mate, no one in this group is going to knock it", and "i believe it my totem animal, because i met it". OK, if it works for me and i've seen it, it's all OK. so hypothetically here i'm going to pick a coffee mug up and pray to it for healing. If it works for me, should i expect healing, and will you accept my belief that the mug is divine and offers me guidance? Kelly says "technically that can work if you believe in it enough" (placebo).
Still need the questions about evolution, existence, human nature, schizophrenia, identifying fraudsters, free will etc.
If you think this is about "conversion", you are foolish, as it is not (this has been said countless times in this thread, as has the point that it's not personal, it's about beliefs which are not). I have to admit i'm growing a little tired of having to explain again and again that i'm not comparing to Christianity and having to listen to people attack my faith when i haven't mentioned it, when i'm talking purely science and asking for the answers you've found. If you don't have the answer, just say so like Debs has. There's no need to evade it by insulting organised religion as a diversionary tactic of discussing the problem rather than the solution - that's a little transparent.
The question is what *you* believe, not why you don't like religion.
For the purposes of this discussion, consider me asking as a scientist and a thinker.
Carra - thanks for going into that detail as its a lot clearer, but still lacks any framework at all and doesn't describe the big picture of how this all comes together.
Please, please let's leave out Christianity - we can get into that discussion in full and massive detail in a separate one after this. Just a matter of focus, that's all.
NAF3
1:36pm Jan 17th
I believe that we are responsible for our own paths in life and that we cannot simply blame a diety when life goes wrong. Also we cannot just live our life by someone elses rules. Society has cobbled together a systemo f justice based on a lot of religious ideals - a lot of them are very good - but people are far too quick to blame religion when their life doesn't work.
I believe in spirits guides and energies and whilst I totally believe in tarot, ouiji and other communication/guidance methods - I think that they shoudl be used for guidance only, just like everyone other belief structure/religion.
We didn't just happen to exist, we are here for a reason - but right now I don't know what or who wants us here.
That's my take, I don't know if there's anything useful in that or maybe I've just bleated a load of useless ramblings.
NAF3
1:37pm Jan 17th
Make that *deity*. I am pretending to be headhunting Senior Technical Managers whilst writing this...
NAF4
2:10pm Jan 17th
NAF4 - thanks for going into that detail as its a lot clearer, but still lacks any framework at all and doesn't describe the big picture of how this all comes together.
I answered your initial questions as you asked, I did not avoid or twist anything, I also clearly stated depending on the person's chosen path the framework will depend. If you want to know about coven work, read Alexandrian or Gardnerian books of shadows (BTW no matter what people say I think Gerald Gardner was just a little pervert anyway). I explained my framework, as I am solitary witch meaning that I work and study alone, every witch's framework is different because unlike any other religion we do not have a manual that tells us what to do, we can read a lot of good and a lot of crap literature to get an idea, but at the end of the day we choose what we want and what we don't. Witchcraft is about freedom, we do not have religious leaders, even in covens they choose the leader democratically and not hierarchycally I said this conversation is futile as every person who is for example a witch does things differently thus creating a different framework, while some rely on legends and mystics and others on science.
It all comes together when you balance yourself, the same as in any prayer or meditation.
As I mentioned before I work on the scientific side of this, meaning my religious workings do not involve dancing naked around the time of full moon or sacrificing, I cast spells that are simple and basic and could be called stating goals, I meditate, I study how much I can influence things with my own energy, I do not play with the dead, because they are dead and should be left n peace.
Alchemy - in my opinion was from the beginning, about self and not about finding the philosopher's stone that will turn anything into gold, it is a simple allegory philosopher's stone is very likely our own mind, with which we can achieve anything, we can not literally turn metal into gold but if we use our brain and common sense we can sell it and earn gold. The gold itself in these kind of things is rarely a precious metal the same as Golden Fleece in the Greek story was not literally made out of gold.
This is discussion is not going to achieve anything, unless someone is going to sit down and write a book instructing witches what to do (and there are some already), creating a complete chaos as witchcraft is not about rules and dogma , but contrary about freedom of choice. This discussion would never even break out between witches because we have learned to be tolerant of our differences, we do not have to explain ourselves, because as long as we know what we do and are honest with ourselves it's totally fine.
NAF1
2:32pm Jan 17th
Mr. Emoto conducted a scientific study projecting thought into water and then freezing the water to see what kind of crystals would form as a result of the projected emotion, feeling, word or intention. He was looking for a pattern. Quite amazing when you see the results. Worth scrolling down to see how hate, love, fear, hitler etc... look when they form water crystals.
http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm
Everything vibrates and can be measured in hertz. The average healthy body vibrates at 45 hertz, metal and wood at around 15-20 hertz. This is the speed at which the chosen matter vibrates with the sub atomic particles all moving in a sea of energy! Perhaps this will give you a clue. Even after an award winning documentary like this with quantum physicists, new-age guru's, atlantean channelers etc... there is still a big quesiton mark over the whole thing.
see here for the movie.
Alex I really don't think it's possible to flush all this stuff out and it make sense from all our individual perspectives. It's as big as asking us all to tell our life stories in one go in detail! Rip the movie and see how they present it. It's quite mind boggling and I slept for 2 days after watching it!
Answer to question 6. Some shamans use medicine (ayahuasca, peyote and other DMT plants) to access other worlds, but it's not necessary. I can access them just by meditating and listening to a shamanic drum and the sound vibration of the drum slows down my brain cycles to theta and delta wave patterns and when the brain cycles are slowed down to that level one can access other dimensions.
As for test 2, It really is that simple, if you really, really believe that coffee cup is the divine god for you, then great, because it's the belief, not the deity that creates your life. Try it as an experiment and see what happens.
NAF1
4:46pm Jan 17th
I stumbled across an interview between Deepak Chopra, spiritual guru, New-Age mystic and author talking to Dr. Fred Alan Wolf, a physicist, writer, and lecturer who earned his Ph.D. in theoretical physics at UCLA in 1963.
The Q&A is rather interesting and kind of explains why it's so difficult to carry on this debate in search for scientific proof and answers.
http://pw1.netcom.com/~wolfpapers/myarticles/Q&A%20for%20Deepak.pdf
Alex Cameron
8:50pm Jan 17th
Right ok this is really going to have to be one of the last times i ask as a simple answer to a simple question because it is proving beyond everyone here.
NAF4 - you did answer some of them (most appropriate answers yet) but i asked for simple answer statements rather than a whole load of stuff about why you don't like Christianity (i thought everyone was allowed their own beliefs?) .Dicussion is *never* meaningless, as someone who sees meaning in everything should know.
- "I believe God is energy" is a belief.
- adding "because all matter vibrates" is a basis for it.
- Therefore "i believe God is energy because all matter vibrates" is a statement of belief, as the question stated.
"I believe in spirits guides and energies and whilst I totally believe in tarot, ouiji and other communication/guidance methods" is 50% there.
Adding "because.....[reason]" is a statement of belief and makes it 100%.
"I believe in my totem animal because i have seen it" is a statement of belief.
"I believe in practicing fairy magic healing because fairies live at the bottom of the garden and can heal people through conducting the universe's energy" is a statement of belief.
"Your coffee cup can be God because its ok for you to believe in anything you want" is a statement of belief.
So how about something like this, for general principles of new age:
1. I believe ..... because.....
2. I believe ..... because.....
3. I believe ..... because.....
4. I believe ..... because.....
5. I believe ..... because.....
6. I believe ..... because.....
7. I believe ..... because.....
8. I believe ..... because.....
9. I believe ..... because.....
10. I believe ..... because.....
Your life story and experiences are not needed, its cool.
The individual practices of different people or groups are irrelevant.
"It all comes together when you balance yourself" is a meaningless statement.
A "Framework" of beliefs is a general overview of the principles that govern new age beliefs - autonomy, relativism, energy, spirits, forces etc. Think bigger picture than what happens in individual covens.
"Perhaps this will give you a clue"? I'm enquiring as to the extent of your scientific knowledge, as you will see my own soon.
P.s. Deepak Chopra's views and the subsequent ridicule are the basis for the wonderfully sarcastic put-down in the scientific community "well it must be quantum" for when something is improbable/silly or doesn't add up (google for it).
NAF2
9:02pm Jan 17th
I'll trade this for the same Re Christianity. Let's set a 2000 year persecution a historical precedent and keep up the quality. Not the hanging, burning, ducking, stocks, beating to death or simple ostracism or suchlike quality.
If Mr. Black wants i's apologies for slavery. I want Pope Ratburger to apologise to Witches the world over. Tout Three Peace Sweet.
Paganism versus Christianity - Fight Night!
1. I believe ..... because.....
2. I believe ..... because.....
3. I believe ..... because.....
4. I believe ..... because.....
5. I believe ..... because.....
6. I believe ..... because.....
7. I believe ..... because.....
8. I believe ..... because.....
9. I believe ..... because.....
10. I believe ..... because.....
NAF2
- You show me Yours, I'll show you mine, said the vicar to the choirboy.
Alex Cameron
9:05pm Jan 17th
Funnily enough Kel and i were at a pub in Canterbury today that had an old medieval ducking stool for witches, and i got photos. Was heard to be murmurring "they had the right idea back then" of course.
NAF2, please for goodness sake stop evading the question of what these beliefs are by trying to divert the focus to christianity, Its the next convo, not this one. Its going to look like you have to no idea or aren't brave enough to stand up for it.
Alex Cameron
9:18pm Jan 17th
One last quick thing before we open this up to the TE forums (i'll chop it up what has come out of this and try to reproduce it faithfully - feel free to point out if a change needs to be made anywhere).
What i'd like as a final thing is to say thanks for everyone for taking the time to talk to me about this stuff, and casting some light on it. I know it's hard to summarise but i think i've got it.
Generally speaking, New Age beliefs involve:
-----------------------------
Constructing your own spirituality from diverse but standardised beliefs/parts, as well as forming mental imagery and concepts (inc. sequences of them), a lot of the time that are typically not available to normal senses; that those visualised images can be unlimited as long as they help the person and fulfil a psychological need, and sometimes quite extravagant? And as much as it pains me, those beliefs trascend science and reason even if we see evidence and reasoning in the physical world (earthly plane, whatever)?
Would you agree with that statement? Or am i still clueless?
If you agree with those statements (ie. i've got the gist of it), could you just say yes/no or say "80% agree" or whatever. I want to be accurate.
NAF2
9:51pm Jan 17th
Constructing your own spirituality from diverse but standardised beliefs/parts, as well as forming mental imagery and concepts (inc. sequences of them), a lot of the time that are typically not available to normal senses; that those visualised images can be unlimited as long as they help the person and fulfil a psychological need, and sometimes quite extravagant? And as much as it pains me, those beliefs trascend science and reason even if we see evidence and reasoning in the physical world (earthly plane, whatever)?
That's part of it and more besides to follow. We all have a psychological need to be close to God, and the wiccans and pagans I have met in the distant and recent past have underlined that these are some of the happiest, most positive and prouctive people I've encountered. They are as close to God as any Pope.
Alex Cameron
9:55pm Jan 17th
Ok so i take that as largely agreeing, which is great as it means i'm on to something. Could you send that a few friends who also subscribe to these beliefs and see if they agree too?
Just waiting for NAF1 & NAF2 to respond to that and i'll list all the other unanswered questions on TE. Will link to a copy of this email (with all personal details erased) so everyone is happy they have been represented correctly.
NAF1
10:01pm Jan 17th
Hi I've just got in from a shamanic journey and am catching up. Bear with me. I'm looking at your statement Alex to see if it's right and I'll add what I can. Back with you soon.
NAF4
10:31pm Jan 17th
Talking about that pub... being married to a man from Canterbury I know rather a lot about that stool i.e. it's a copy and simply kept as a tourist attraction... never mind.
I would say I agree with about 60% this statement I disagree with:
that those visualised images can be unlimited as long as they help the person and fulfill a psychological need, and sometimes quite extravagant?
I don't believe it is a need or unlimited, I would never consider my experiences as a need or extravaganza, but rather a try, to see what it feels like, i.e. meditating, in all cases was successful, but I never thought what I would want to achieve or do before hand, I suppose because I am critical, it's a bit like putting it in a testube, and the testube is me... However it is my personal opinion. As for transcending science, all beliefs do.
Also I am more than happy to answer all the questions as long as they are simple, and not elaborate. I was not attacking your faith or any other, but you have attacked mine (and I do not bother with things like revenge as it's a luxury for fools), and you can not look at it from the scientific point of view because no religion can be put under microscope and proved to be correct.
I can list everything I believe in the thread John has made on CE with pleasure.
NAF1
11:16pm Jan 17th
Bugger I have to send this as i can't copy and paste it into the link.... DOH!
I don't know whether you realise it Alex, but no one seems to be taking a pop at christianity.... I am a confirmed christian but it never really did anything for me, apart from a time when i was hospitalised for a year and after the congregation at the local church prayed for me I was discharged the next day. So I do believe in the power of prayer. The christian dogma just doesn't suit my free spirit. Even john with his tongue and cheek approach is not knocking it. Well maybe for burning witches at the stake. Surely this was the ultimate act of control and fear of female power and intuition. But perhaps you would like to look at your continuous derogatory tone to what we believe. You are dishing out what you don't want to take back. Think about it? I like your new and more compassionate and logical approach recently. I suits you much better. I think you need to reel in the words like "Idiocy" and "ridicule" etc.. It's just not constructive for us to be intimate here and it's a very intimate subject for us all. If you want us to open up, you have to build a bit of trust. However I'm going to stick my neck out again as I don't take myself that seriously and am willing to play the fool, as i often do, so that I can have a jolly huge chuckle at myself at some stage later! The best laugh ever, to me.
Ok here's a few "I believes" for you:
1.I believe in shamanic practise and journeying because it allows me to access my sub-conscious mind in a clear and concise way.
2. I believe in meditation because it allows me to hear "Great Spirit" or God answering my prayers
3. I believe in the use of crystals in meditation because they give me greater clarity, compared to when I meditate without.
4. I believe in synchronicity because it proves to me time and time again that I am connected to everything and everyone around me in the quantum field. It's proof of divine order and symmetry.
5. I believe that God is energy and in everything we experience because of the way physics measures energy and the nature of energy vibrating to create physical reality. (Actually I'm not sure if I believe this one...seems like you've auto-suggested it somehow)
6. I believe that we are all creators, Gods, because we have imagination, ideas, inner constellations and we create our own reality through our individual perception.
7. I believe in the tarot because it's a divination tool and confirms through imagery and specific message whether my female intuition is right and on track.
8. I believe in prayers because they get answered.
9. I believe in the power of intention, because it works too.
10. I believe in my power animal because it gives me symbols and metaphorical imagery from my sub-conscious mind that help me and guide me in my journey of life.
11. I believe in faithhealing/reiki/energy work because I have been healed by it and seen other healed by it.
12. I believe in the power of being positive, because when i apply it, things go right for me.
13. I believe in totems and deities in any form, because they remind me of who I really am.
14. I believe that sometimes a belief can be a be(LIE)f because when I change my limited beliefs new doors open up to me.
15. Most of all I believe in myself, because when I do believe in myself, the awesomely powerful, mysterious and limitless being I am with unbounded potential (without being conceited, we all are this) great, amazing and miraculous things happen to me.
I'll put my slant on your paragraph on TE.
NAF1
11:34pm Jan 17th
I agree heavily that paganism for me personaly is defined by the indentification with every single items and part of God's creation in order to understand and respect it. The pursuit of knowledge is paramount to that.
I would say more, but then I'd be wasting words on billion pound facebook wankers.
Alex Cameron
Just watching "What the bleep do we know" and reading Richard Dawkins' website. His response was 1 word: "tosh". Simon Singh's was 2: "ridiculous balderdash". The BBC was longest: "a documentary aimed at the totally gullible." Great that it stirred so much debate though.
Also very funny:
"Faery Wicca (or "Fairy Wicca") is an umbrella term that refers to any tradition of modern Wicca that focuses on the Fae (gnomes, elves, faeries, sprites, etc.), their lore, and their relation to the natural world."
NAF2
3:28am Jan 18th
Dawkins is a miserable swine fo what I read. Simon Singh haven't heard of.
Fairies? Fucks sake. Allegories folklore and metaphor. If you don't believe in fairies you don't believe in magick. To be aay with the farry's is to be out of your tits. Thing about it. In a short cut metaphysical switch to divine reality in loving kindness those that are magickal kind and unimposing register greater for their peculiarity. From belief in that before your eyes, to belief in that behind it AS well, not in spite of it. If you want a religion that really conflicts with science after all, you're best off choosing run of the mill christianity.
NAF1
8:53am Jan 18th
OK Alex, rather than telling me what other people think about the film, can you tell me what *you* think about it. Seriously. stop being guided and forming your opinions by your intellectual "GODS"!
NAF1
9:32am Jan 18th
also we now have three threads going, one on here and 2 on CE, Can we decided which one we are going to use?
NAF2
12:45pm Jan 18th
This conversation turned into a hydra. No like it.
NAF2
1:15pm Jan 18th
The minute you refer to another hugely broad religion as 'Fuckheaded' I think you lose the game.
I don't agree with religious hatred speech banning laws, but you may have crossed a tangible line with your blog right now Alex, I could never describe you as 'fuckheaded' despite the myriad of fuckheaded things chrsitianity has achieved...
such as the drug war, the inquisition etc etc etc.
Alex Cameron
1:25pm Jan 18th
The latest blog wasn't aimed at you guys at all - i do talk to a lot of people every day and it was mostly about younger 20s mob and the teenage morons behind them.
What do i think of the film? Well it was late so i need to watch it again, but it seems to be like all things New Age - pseudoscience (without the scientific method) wrapped up as something profound, which deliberately confuses and misguides ordinary people.
I am never, ever going to abandon reason and logic for the imagination- these things are not "Gods".
NAF2
1:31pm Jan 18th
"Our generation have never been to war on mass conscription, or been threatened with an invasion. We never see death, because it is always ferried away in an ambulance. We have never been ruled by a tyrant dictator or been overtly oppressed. We allow other faiths and cultures that are minority groups to overrule the democratic majority. We have never suffered famine, economic and/or natural disaster devastation on a macro scale. We have running water, clothing and basic healthcare unlike most of the world."
if by 'Generation' you mean white English males coming up to 30... maybe.
but I would still disagree. I have to say I'm somewhat aghast as at the sparse and shallow nature of the rhetoric and logic in your blog's last couple of posts. I give it 2/10 on trolling, and 1/10 on background research...
and I know you like your market research Alex :)
you might not have never been oppressed, overruled or hungry or poor. But a heck of a lot of "Your Generation" have.
Yeah. Death is always ferried away in an ambulance. I've seen my dead sister, a neighbour that hung himself, a man killed in front of my eyes outside a pub, the crowd savagely beating him to death.
but all you need is love right? pffft.
Alex Cameron
1:37pm Jan 18th
"In a short cut metaphysical switch to divine reality in loving kindness those that are magickal kind and unimposing register greater for their peculiarity. From belief in that before your eyes, to belief in that behind it AS well, not in spite of it."
This is meaningless, again.
John you are unique in a lot of ways, but the general intellectual malaise that overshadows us means people will believe almost anything and use anything they can to justify it. My point is that people don't *think*, and fairies are a prime example whether they are allegorical or not.
Btw trolling is a forum thing, not for public blogs, and let's move it over to TE.
NAF1
1:40pm Jan 18th
Church congregations are meaningless: The idea of congregations keeps individuals as children since Christians are disinclined from taking the initiative to take responsibility for their own relation to God. Kierkegaard stresses that "Christianity is the individual, here, the single individual.
Christendom had become secularized and political: Since the Church was controlled by the State, Kierkegaard believed the State's bureaucratic mission was to increase membership and oversee the welfare of its members. More members would mean more power for the clergymen: a corrupt ideal. This mission would seem at odds with Christianity's true doctrine, which is to stress the importance of the individual, not the whole.
Christianity becomes an empty religion: Thus, the state church political structure is offensive and detrimental to individuals, since everyone can become "Christian" without knowing what it means to be Christian. It is also detrimental to the religion itself since it reduces Christianity to a mere fashionable tradition adhered to by unbelieving "believers", a "herd mentality" of the population, so to speak.
NAF1
1:44pm Jan 18th
From the above disclosures I am a former, creator and pioneer of my own beliefs and ritualisitc practise outside of any governing body or church system. As as result i am free to take responsibility for my own life and live to my highest potential for the good of myself, others and mankind. Mysticsm talks to our spirit, which is the right way to speak to spirit. The bible talks in fables, stories and metaphors in order for our spirit to understand. Science can't really fathom that yet. It's too complex for our primitive technologies.
NAF2
1:45pm Jan 18th
Trolling is a Artform that can be practised in nearly any context. Jesus was the ultimate troll and I for one look up to him and draw inspirations from his epic trollery.
Alex Cameron
3:20pm Jan 18th
Ok bypassing the Christianity once again to get back to science.
"Science can't really fathom that yet. It's too complex for our primitive technologies."
That is possibly the most ludicrous statement i think i have heard in the last 5 years barring "I didn't want to be bulimic as it would rot my teeth."
Alex Cameron
3:20pm Jan 18th
And yes Mr Monday, i see your trolling on here and TE :) Very good :)
NAF2
3:35pm Jan 18th
If science can't explain God. Then isn't science primative?
NAF1
3:50pm Jan 18th
Just trying to make a point of a lot of things are meaningless, yet they exist!
NAF1
3:53pm Jan 18th
"Science can't really fathom that yet. It's too complex for our primitive technologies."
Why so ludicrous, please explain?
How can science measures love, for example?
Alex Cameron
3:55pm Jan 18th
Primitive when compared to God, yes. My personal belief is that New Age "tools" were a form/precursor of primitive science, but now outdated and irrelevant (i.e. need to be junked and wirtten off).
I subscribe to the majority belief of the scientific community (if you google for it, you'll see science is dominated by Christians) that "scientas" or science itself is the study of God's creation.
NAF1
4:01pm Jan 18th
Well, not if they work for people. What scientific devices would you recommend for divination then in the 21st century? Perhaps that I go into trance with my iPhone? hehe x
No seriously, give me a 21st century scientific tool to divine with and I'll be open to that.
Science is indeed a study of God's creation and what about a crystal say, is that not one of God's creations too? So you can measure the vibration and molecular structure of a crystal, but you still can't scientifially measure how it would add clarity to meditation say. Only personal experience could consclude that.
Alex Cameron
4:02pm Jan 18th
love and "god energy" are a false dichotomy (logical fallacy), meaning one cannot be compared to the other. The former is experienced by 6BN people as an absolute, the latter is a relativist concept "seen" by a small minority of people.
Not being able to measure love does not give automatic assertion to the eixistence of new age concepts.
Alex Cameron
4:05pm Jan 18th
Well i believe divination is a load of baseless rubbish, so you could use pretty much anything you wanted, as humans always have. My coffee cup maybe? Perhaps you could divine the location of Madeleine McCann or would that be too "difficult"?
NAF1
4:23pm Jan 18th
My personal belief is that New Age "tools" were a form/precursor of primitive science, but now outdated and irrelevant (i.e. need to be junked and wirtten off).
So what could replace them if they have worked for people all over the world for centuries, as per my crystal and meditation expample? So if they were a precursor of primitive science as you say and had some function at some stage in the past, why today would replace them?
I don't know the answer to the Madeleine McCann issue, but you might want to conduct an experiment. I would think it would be very easy to round up 100 odd remote viewers or clairvoyants on facebook and ask them to see what they could contribute.
However you are then in the realm of messing with "free will"
NAF1
4:26pm Jan 18th
sorry what today would replace them? typo
Alex Cameron
4:40pm Jan 18th
Simple answer? Nothing.
NAF2
4:47pm Jan 18th
I prefer to think in BBC rather than ITV terms. But that's just me, and even then, don't believe everything you read.
What religion people describe themselves as and what they actually are...Are two very fucking different things.
Alex Cameron
5:07pm Jan 18th
you mean they're relative, and you state that literally as an absolute?
NAF1
5:17pm Jan 18th
Ok I want to throw in sometime quite bizarre here but thought provoking nonetheless. I visited a small village in Mexico that uses "Coca Cola" to worship. It's drunk by everyone in the village and I was alarmed to see it in babies bottles too! Literally the whole thing was quite an experience:
Pine needles, dead chickens, eggs and soda pop; the staples of worship for the locals of San Juan Chamula, a pastoral village a few miles north of the Mexican colonial town of San Cristóbal. The Chamulans revere San Juan Bautista (St. John the Baptist), and after a few minutes in the central cathedral you might catch yourself wondering, “What does any of this have to do with St. John the Baptist?”
Your steps on the multicolored tile floor are muted by a soft carpet of pine needles, and families build small altars to San Juan Bautista by clearing away circles on the floor and filling them with candles, eggs, gizzards, dead chickens and bottles of soda pop. They bury their faces in the pine needles, mumble incomprehensibly, smear the gizzards and eggs on the floor, and burp to excess, whilst divining the bottle of coke around their heads in a circular motion. They believe burping expels evil spirits, so they consume copious amounts of Coca Cola. The barren sections of floor where families have paid their respects are marked by dozens of fading candles drowning in their own pools of wax. Custodians scurry about with scrapers and goat-hide bags, cleaning up the sticky offerings to make way for the next family.
So I guess your coffee cup divination tool could work. Again it's the belief not the tool. I guess the "tool" is a totem or reminder.
NAF2
5:24pm Jan 18th
As Stella knows, I am not an objectivist Alex. The Reality of the World and perhaps the greatest beauty of it, is the fact it takes allsorts - as Stella has vividly demonstrated above.
NAF1
5:29pm Jan 18th
The central tenent for ne of New Ageism is to accept the futility of being able to transfer truth. My truth is not your truth and all will doubt and find their own light. As above So below. Consider the monotony of a planet where everyone agees in Science and Jedi Christianity.
They'd ban smoking I reckon!
Alex Cameron
5:31pm Jan 18th
Then you desperately need to read about how fundamentally flawed the concept of relativism is. There are things that are relative in this life, but when i say the concept is flawed, i mea putting it as the base of everything...
NAF1
5:33pm Jan 18th
So then if a tool is just a tool or totem or reminder, how can crystals be used for healing. Do they have magical healing properties or energies that can't be measured scientifically? Or are we talking about intention?
Now that's an interesting one, because the same theory could be applied to any, as you say, outdated new-age tools such as feathers, crystals, tarot, pentagrams etc.... but yet all of these tools have a specific meaning. So if you put intention with a specific meaning to create a positive outcome, would that be the same as prayer, for instance?
A blue lace agate crystal is blue, funnily enough, and so is the throat chakra and so the blue lace agate stone is used for treating communication problems, thyroid dysfunction, the oesophagus and any emotional or physical ailments of that part of the body.
So new age divination tools can be used with an intention to create a specific outcome. That in itself is very powerful.
NAF2
5:37pm Jan 18th
"If God is infinate, then we live in a world of infinate possibility, and to die would be an awfully interesting adventure"
Sorry, I didn't hear how relitavism is flawed. Relative to you we're all just souls in darkness seeking a little light. We have explained at length when we find out light inspiration and hope. And it's here and now. Not in heaven. We bring heaven to us, we don't go to it for blowing up paki brothers in Iraqiland.
NAF1
5:45pm Jan 18th
Here here John. As they say we are only here for a short while and what is this life if only a short blip in the great scheme of infinity.
I have found my little piece of heaven on earth. It's called having peace of mind and freedom. Also it has manifested recently into human form in the form of my daughter. She is from the light, there is no doubt.
Alex Cameron
5:50pm Jan 18th
A crystal is a very pretty rock. I know this will come as a surprise because it looks all pretty, but it is not magical. Crystals supposedly vibrate at millions of cycles per second whereas brain waves vibrate at about 200 cycles per second. So much for harmony.
The meaning of these tools is supposedly different to everyne (and relative), so how can they have consistent meaning?
Maybe i'm missing the argument you're proposing, but how exactly did y ou arrive at the conclusion that intention + random object = specific outcome?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chewbacca+defense
John - that's why i suggested reading about relativism, and i didn't explain it here. If relativism is flawed, and New Age belief is based on it, then it is all to be written off.
Start here: "Everything is relative" is an absolute. Enjoy working that one out.
NAF1
5:53pm Jan 18th
well if when we take communion of wine symbolising blood and bread symbolising flesh to cleanse our souls, do we do just that,
the intention- to cleanse our souls from sin
the tools, wine and bread
the outcome - clean slate of the soul?
NAF2
5:55pm Jan 18th
but what if relativity itself is not an absolute, because it is, after al upon the ultimate whim of a creator.
hmmm?
Read a book? No thanks. I don't need a book to tell me thgouhts and feelings become actions and combined with physical reality create consequences in future.
Alex Cameron
5:56pm Jan 18th
if we're only here for a short while, then i'd suggest you don't waste that time following silly superstitions and baseless beliefs founded on fanciful collective imagination :)
Oh Stella my darling, do i have to say again that this for me is science and reason, and not a thing i relate to Christianity? Communion is like putting a poppy on in November to remember sacrifice. It's not to magic up an outcome.
NAF2
5:59pm Jan 18th
terry pratchett is a theological fucking genius who could knock Darwin out any day.
Alex Cameron
6:01pm Jan 18th
"Read a book? No thanks." Can i quote you? :)
New Age belief - the spirituality with no need for thought or basis.
Then read it here, because it is a fallacy.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/relativism/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism#Criticisms
NAF2
6:09pm Jan 18th
You're always welcome to quote me. Verbatim with proper accredditation plus three forms of triplicate ID and an radioactive flame suit, especially when quoting out of context.
When you or anyone else can prove relitavism to be a fraud then you can get your nobel peace prize. Until then I need proof of such. Not links to books.
I have read all these books. Therefore I win. Right.
Alex Cameron
6:14pm Jan 18th
Relativism isn't fraudulent per se as it is a concept, so it is deemed fallacious through logic and reasoning. It's existence is dubious to say the least.
Here's a mini example. You can see that little JPEG picture of a book, and so can i. Therefore we are both seeing the same thing, and our "reality" is not relative.
On your last legs here guys, so make it good.
NAF2
6:21pm Jan 18th
not really cause we have different perceptions and opinions of the same objects and concepts.
NAF2
6:21pm Jan 18th
you see a good book. I see toilet paper.
Alex Cameron
6:28pm Jan 18th
lmao :)
So reality is just made up of our different opinions and the picture isn't there?
That is utterly, utterly ridiculous.
NAF1
6:43pm Jan 18th
no our perceptions!
NAF2
6:48pm Jan 18th
no like it?
Alex Cameron
6:52pm Jan 18th
There is a reason it is called "reality" - it is a constant and an absolute. Defined as "That which exists objectively and in fact."
If we look up and see the sky, the sky is there above us. That is NOT relative. How we feel about it is subjective. Thoughts and feelings do not make up physical existence, scientific reason and historical fact.
NAF2
6:58pm Jan 18th
where did reason come from?
K
7:07pm Jan 18th
just joined in really to agree that pratchett is a genius. l haven't really got involved in this debate to much as i haven't got to grips with my faith yet but when i do i will not feej the need to justify it to anyone or explain myself. a belief is exactly that, it isn't called a know
NAF1
9:29pm Jan 18th
Hey I'm still evolving my faith daily! Not justifying it, just flushing it out. Actually I've learned a lot about myself and my beliefs and knowings as a result of this debate and I'd like to thank Alex, John, Carra, Debs, Kelly and the silent witness Andrew for reflecting this back to me.
Namaste. (Translates the goodness in me reaches out to honour the goodness in you.)
Have a great weekend! :)